Speaker A: 0:02

Welcome to When She Pivot. I'm Lauren.

Speaker B: 0:04

And I'm Cassie. We're two working moms navigating professional and personal perspective shifts.

Speaker A: 0:09

We're here to hopefully give ourselves and others the permission to think and dream bigger while crafting lives of intention, holding space for all of who we are, Professionals, mamas, caregivers, partners, and humans desiring more freedom. With Cassie's experience as a lawyer currently working in the nonprofit space, E.M. lawrence.

Speaker B: 0:27

As a former high school teacher turned entrepreneur, we think it's important to normalize this kind of self exploration with curiosity and openness instead of fear and judgment. Turning down the volume on that critical inner voice and helping you embrace what you actually want.

Speaker A: 0:42

When she Pivots is all about embracing our stories and hearing the stories of women who are maybe just a little bit further ahead on their journeys. Our stories have power not because of where they land us, but because of what we learn along the way.

Speaker B: 0:54

So let's dive in and embrace the messy middle and our stories together.

Speaker A: 1:00

I'm so excited we have our first guest, y'all.

Speaker C: 1:03

Am I the first one?

Speaker B: 1:04

You're the first interview that we've done, and we're so excited. It's you.

Speaker C: 1:10

We are. Tell me that. I feel so honored. We are honored to. Now the. The pressure is on to, like, be really interesting. Great.

Speaker A: 1:19

You are really interesting. And there's also zero pressure.

Speaker B: 1:24

Yeah.

Speaker C: 1:24

Well, I'm really happy. I adore both of you, so I'm so stoked to chat.

Speaker B: 1:29

The feelings mutual. And I think. Do you want to start, Lauren, and just kind of start, or do you want me to take over and start the first questions? I'm open.

Speaker C: 1:39

Yeah.

Speaker A: 1:40

I mean, I think we should have. Kim, maybe you can just kind of introduce yourself a little bit, if you don't mind.

Speaker C: 1:47

I can introduce myself. I never really know.

Speaker A: 1:51

Tell the people who you are.

Speaker B: 1:53

People must know.

Speaker C: 1:54

There are a lot of versions of me. I'm like, oh, who am I showing up as today?

Speaker B: 1:59

This is why you're here.

Speaker C: 2:01

Yeah, I think that's kind of the nature. Right? So I'm Kim Guiley. I am a mom. I think that's always the first role. My Kids are turning 8 and 11 this month, and I'm kind of freaking out about it. Yeah, I have big kids. It's pretty crazy. Um, so, yeah, I'm a mom. I am a birth doula. I am the founder of a nonprofit in Santa Cruz county called the Circle. I am the co founder with my husband of a web development and photography business. And I am A self proclaimed Renaissance woman. I do all the things, I never decided what I want to do when I grow up and I never will. And I'm totally happy about that.

Speaker A: 2:50

Okay. I think I have to steal that from you. Yeah, I think I am going to be done trying to figure that out too.

Speaker C: 2:56

Yeah. The whole renaissance man thing, I'm like, well, wait a second. I do a lot of things too. So I'm a Renaissance woman. I don't know, you know, if I do them well. I do a lot of things acceptably. Am I like a superstar? Oh, I don't know.

Speaker B: 3:10

I like her because I've worked with you before in the number, right? No, that is not. I will not accept that here. And I, I feel like we're fed so many messages about like, what do you want to be? When you're. Just by virtue of being asked that question, we're being conditioned to feel like we need to make a selection that's going to define the rest of our lives. And so I feel like your way of answering that question is like a form of subtle rebellion or not so subtle.

Speaker C: 3:37

Yeah, I don't. So like, I don't know, maybe six or seven years ago, when my husband was working in like more of a corporate job and we were talking about like jumping off and starting our own business, we were, we had so many conversations about like, what that looks like. And I pivoted the question from what do you want to be? Or like, what do you want to do to how do you want to feel? And that has like, been the question that like, leads everything for me. Like, if I'm making a decision, it's like, how do I want to feel? How do I want my life to feel? Because what you do is like almost. It almost doesn't matter. Right. It's like, if you could be doing so many things and find happiness and joy and like success and fulfillment in that, but like, if you keep coming back to like, oh, is this meeting, like my goal of how I want to feel? Then you're always assessing and kind of establishing, like, am I doing the right thing? And then, I don't know, you just go from there.

Speaker B: 4:35

I'm obsessed with that.

Speaker A: 4:37

Yeah, I think we're done. I think that was it.

Speaker B: 4:39

Right. But I also want to know, like, as someone who's like, just starting to adopt this mentality, I feel like I'm almost 37 going on to my second kid and I'm just starting to internalize this. And I feel like you had that, like, from the jump or you got there sooner. And I'm just really curious. How did you get to this point where you had the, like, wisdom to know that that was the question for you? And so how did you and Travis. Like, I'm learning how to have these conversations in the context of my marriage with my family and all these things we're juggling. So can you, like, kind of share a little bit more about how you and Travis sort of either intuitively, intentionally kind of walked that path together, like, had those conversations and then, like, set yourselves up so you could take a leap in a very high cost of living area? When I think, if I'm blocked, you are already a mom.

Speaker C: 5:31

I was already a mom. Yeah. That was. That was scary. It was scary. We just accepted a year ago. We're like, oh, we did it. And it's been like four or five years. Like, oh, I think. I think this is working. We're like, well, yeah, we've been paying our bills for four years. I think that's pretty good.

Speaker A: 5:46

It's happening.

Speaker C: 5:47

It's happening. That's such a hard question. You know, I think I have to acknowledge the fact that, like, I'm incredibly privileged in that I have a lot of support. And for me, that looks like a lot of family support. Like, my parents live close, I have my in laws in town. There's kind of this container of, like, I know that people have my back, and so it makes, like, the jump a little bit less scary. Not that it's not scary, especially. Especially with kids and a mortgage and all that.

Speaker A: 6:24

Yeah.

Speaker C: 6:25

But I think, like, it's a privilege to even be able to have those types of conversations and to be able to, like, question how. How do I want to feel and what do I want to do with my life? Like, a lot of people do not have that kind of flexibility. When I've been in seasons of life where even as a very privileged person, person, I've been struggling with, either with my mental health or, like, my son had really severe physical health stuff as a baby where literally was like, one foot in front of the other. And so there's so many people who don't have the flexibility or the privilege to even ask those types of questions. So, I mean, honestly, like, the truth, I'm being totally honest. The true answer is, like, honestly, privilege, Right. Like, I have a container that allows me to go, hmm, am I truly happy? Am I truly fulfilled? Is this what I want to do for my whole life? Do I want to try something else to fill up my soul? Like, that's an amazing thing that I have the opportunity to do. And also there are people who have the same amount of privilege as me or more who don't ask themselves those questions. And so I think, sure, there's definitely an element that's like a personality thing. I'm inherently, like, a terrible employee. Like, I don't. I don't do well with people telling me what to do. I think I've had, like, one, no, two jobs when I was, like, a teenager where I was like, I, you know, was a grocer for a minute and I worked in a restaurant, which I think everyone should do. I think that's such a good job. Agreed. But, like, literally beyond that, like, since the time I was, like, really illegal adult, I've always worked for myself. And I think it's just because I'm kind of a brat, and I'm like, I just going to do this the way that I want to do it. So there's been that element where I. I had worked for myself through our entire relationship. And so my husband is someone who, like, was a little bit more traditional in his path. Like, he went to school and then he got the internship in his final semester. And then that turned into a job, and he was just sitting pretty at that job and doing the job that he had set out to do. And there were a lot of parts of that job that were not meeting him. And at home, I could see that. I could see where he wasn't happy. And so my, like, entrepreneurial brain was like, well, we could do this ourselves and we could do it a lot better. But I think that there's this element of, I call it comfortable discomfort, where, like, we're just doing something even if we know that we're not super happy with it, but at least we know what to expect. Like, we know what that discomfort feels like. We know where the, like, pain points are. And so in a lot of ways, that's less scary than, like, the major discomfort of stepping off. And it's a black hole. You have no idea what it's going to be like. And maybe it's going to be way better, but also maybe it's going to be way worse. So I'm just going to stay with this. And so we had a lot of years of comfortable discomfort where I was like, come on, babe, let's do it. Let's do it. And he was like, yeah, okay. But also, like, our mortgage is expensive and, like, kids cost a lot and we're really tired and we're not sleeping and, and so we, there was a lot of navigating around that about like, how and when we were going to kind of shift into our own thing. And so the happy medium for us, which was not sustainable, but it, it helped us make the shift, was he stuck with his full time job. And then we started taking clients on the side at the same time. So it was way too much work for, you know, like over a year, I think close to two years, until we reached a point with our own business where we had. We couldn't take any more clients because he had to do his regular job. So it was kind of that jumping off point of either we can stay like this and we're kind of capped at what we're able to take on, or we can take that leap and we already know that we have at least a little income coming in because we're working with a few clients already, and now we're going to jump into it full time. And so I don't know if he would have done that without my, my wave. But a little push, a little, little push from the wifey, um, but it's.

Speaker B: 10:53

Also a proof of concept. Like, you guys can hustle your way through, like, building like, the proof of concept so he could see, like, this could work totally.

Speaker C: 11:03

And, you know, true, like, I probably needed that too. I think maybe less so in my Dre 20s when I was like, less tied down in terms of, like, you know, bills and children depending on me. But, but yeah, we, we didn't want to, like, put ourselves in a position where we were not able to, you know, make ends meet, that we were not able to support our kids and give them the opportunities that we want them to have. And so, so yeah, I think sometimes, sometimes jumping off is not like one big jump. You know, it's just like a lot of little steps in the direction that you want to go. And from the outside, maybe it looks like it looks different, but I think internally it's a lot of like, micro shifts that eventually change your path and you go, oh, this is what we're doing now. And so for us, it was literally years later that we looked up and we're like, oh, wait, we did it. Because it was just all these little, all these little jumps or all these.

Speaker B: 11:59

Little, little step in the midst. I'm obsessed with all of it, all of it, the gradual process of it. I'm obsessed with the acknowledgement of how much privilege comes with being able to, like, make these choices and then also understanding there is a certain piece of like, Ownership over. But that's not the whole story. Like.

Speaker C: 12:20

Right.

Speaker B: 12:21

I love all of that context. I. Within all of that. I guess I'm curious if, at the time that these little pivots are being, these little shifts, micro shifts, if you will, towards this vision. Vision. Did you have the bigger vision?

Speaker C: 12:35

Yes.

Speaker B: 12:37

In mind already as a couple?

Speaker C: 12:39

Hugely. Again, it was, like, what we wanted our family to look like and feel like, and it really centered around family life and our kids. This idea that, like, what if rather than one parent working full time and one parent being home with the kids, we both worked part time and together that was enough so that Travis could. Travis with my husband, that he could, you know, volunteer in the class like I do, that he could drive on field trips, that he could do pickup from school. And actually, it's funny. Before we started recording, I was telling you guys that we're kind of envisioning spending next summer abroad. And when we first were talking about starting our own business, we were on this family vacation in Hawaii with my parents, and our kids were really little, and there we met this family on the beach, and they'd been there for a month, and they were working from Kauai. And I was like, oh, my God, that's what I want to be able to do. Like, that's amazing. They're just doing their life in a different location. That's way more awesome than our location. Like, I want to be able to do that. And so, obviously, these last several years with COVID and, you know, we started this. This family center, this nonprofit, which has really kept us, you know, tied down, but we realized, like, oh, wait, that was what we said we wanted to do. And so now, again, we're taking these little steps that we need to take to make that a reality for next summer. And so, yeah, there have been a lot of conversations about how we want our family structure to look, how we want roles divided so that our kid. Like, what are we modeling for our children? I grew up in a very traditional house set up. Like, my dad went away to work. My mom was home. She was on the pta. She was super involved. Like, and, like, while that was great and, you know, it worked, it also is not the vision that we have for our family, and it's not the vision that I want my kids to see. I want them to see that there's another way and that dad can be super involved and that mom goes out to meetings, too, and that I'm a person outside of being a mom. And also that dad is a dad. And not just someone who, like, brings the money home, you know? So, yes, there was definitely a lot of consciousness around how we wanted that to. To look and feel.

Speaker A: 15:12

I love that. I mean, so when you guys first set, like, you're mentioning that moment in Hawaii, and I'm picturing that happening, but, like, when. When you first started having those conversations. Because I think a lot of the people listening are probably in a position where they haven't. They haven't figured out the vision yet, or maybe they have some ideas of what it might look like, but they're not sure how. I'm sorry, I realize this is not on the list of questions, but I want to ask you anyways. How did you guys get, like, you have to be really honest with yourself and with your partner in order to have those real conversations, Right? Like, was that a pretty vulnerable thing, a hard thing? Like, I just know that's a really tricky thing to navigate in a marriage, in any relationship, especially when there's kids involved, you know, that's a lot.

Speaker C: 16:04

Totally. That's a great question. You know, I don't think I was conscious of that vulnerability at the time, but, yeah, looking back, I'm like, yeah, that it requires a level of mutual trust. Right. Especially if you're doing it with your partner.

Speaker B: 16:23

Right.

Speaker C: 16:24

Although, really, even if you're jumping off on your own and your partner is still doing their own thing, like, there's this level of communication around what is this going to look like and how is this logistically going to work? I will say that we have the benefit. I feel it's a benefit. We've been together for a ridiculously long time. We were very young when we got together. Not high school sweethearts, but might as well have done. Me, I was like, 19. And so we'd been together for, like, 12 years or so by the time we really started making these big moves. And so we navigated so much as a couple that I think that trust was already pretty well established, including, like, some really hard stuff. Like I said, with our son, his health stuff was really, really, really hard. And. And navigating those things as a couple is a reminder of what you can get through, you know? So I think. I think he and I have a really clear understanding of where our strengths are. And we always kind of joke that the thing we always say is, together we are Mensa, which is like those, like, super bright people. And so I'm like, well, maybe on our own, like, we're both like, I love that people, but together, we are freaking genius. And so we happen to have, like, very different strengths, and so it works well. Like, I run our business. I do the finances, I do the invoicing, I do the sales calls. Like, that's my jam. I know how to do that. I've run multiple businesses, so I have experience with that. And then he's like. I'm like, well, you're the guy that, like, does all the deep coding and the logistical stuff for the websites and the things that I just, like, don't know how to do. And he, like, communicates directly with clients. And so those things happen pretty naturally because that's where our roles fall. I think that if it looked different, it would require a lot more communication each step of the way. Like, okay, what are the expectations here? What do we want this to look like? How do we want this to feel? And also trial and error and knowing that, like, you're not going to get it right the first time and there are going to be situations where you're like, oh, this did not feel or go the way that I wanted it to go. And that's okay. And it doesn't mean that you're doing it wrong. It's just the nature of starting something new, you know? So having grace with your partner, but also having grace with yourself and realizing that, like, it's a learning curve, you're not going to jump into something fresh and, like, be awesome at it right away, or if you are, you're very lucky. But don't expect that to happen every time.

Speaker B: 19:11

Practice of being novel or things being novel or new and being a, like a beginner, I feel like the older you get, the more intentional practice that requires.

Speaker C: 19:21

It's hard. It's really hard. I mean, as a mom, I've had to, like, work on that with my kids. My daughter especially, like, likes to be really good at things. So if something doesn't come naturally, it's really frustrating to her. And she's a bright person, and so lots of things do come naturally. But it's cool because I think in coaching her through that, it's kind of like, helped reintegrate it into myself too, that, like, oh, yeah, like, we don't have to be great at it right away. I was talking about that with my therapist where I was like, oh, but I just wanna. I just wanna be successful at it. And she's like, well, then why are you in therapy? Yeah, all right. You know, like, we're working on it. It's a work in progress. We're working on it. And so I don't know. I think, honestly, like, we always have the highest expectations of ourselves versus other people. Like, people don't look at you and judge you. It's always us. It's always internal. And so we're just. We expect a lot out of ourselves. And then when it doesn't go perfectly, we like, oh, never mind. I can't do this. I'm blowing it. And. And that shuts you down so soon. And then you never know what could have happened, you know, if you just kept going with it.

Speaker B: 20:31

I love all of it. I learned. I learned so much. I talked to both of you, really, but I just. I. I am a perfectionist, and I'm learning so much from Ruby, like, watching her, like, try to tie her shoes, and she is me. It's like, the instant she's not perfect at it, she gets really frustrated. And like you said, coaching her through it and working through the perfectionist tendencies that she has, that army has really helped me reflect on my own. And also talking to both of you and other people who've started their own entrepreneurial journeys or taken a risk or a leap, like, it is about navigating the things that come up that are unexpected, about not doing them perfectly right out the gate and learning and. And pivoting as you go. That is the whole thing.

Speaker C: 21:21

What is that saying? Like, imperfect action is better than perfect in action? It's. Yeah, it's so true. It's. And it's hard to do that, especially, I think, if you're putting yourself out publicly because you don't want to, like, fail. You don't want to fail publicly. You don't want people to think things about you, you know? But again, everyone's so worried about themselves. They're not really thinking very much about us, I don't think. Which is great. Whatever. Leave. You know, like, we're just. I think all you. All you can do is, like, your best on any given day. And sometimes that looks awesome and it's super badass, and other days it's like, all right, we'll try again tomorrow, and that's okay. You know, this day, I just got through the day. Like, that's. That's, like, my parenting model. I tell my kids all the time, I'm doing my best. I'm doing my best. We can do. That's all we can do. Yeah.

Speaker B: 22:19

I do think what is unique about you and Travis, though, is, like. And what inspires me another piece of it is the level of intention. Like, that's the word that keeps coming up. Like, you had this vision that you all were working towards, even if it was baby steps over a period of years in this like crazy season of life or ebbs and flows of that. Yeah, but I think that's it.

Speaker C: 22:39

It definitely took twists and turns that I didn't expect. When we first set out to start our own business. This whole idea of the non profit was in the mix. Peripherally, I had had that vision and hope for years, even before that, but we didn't sit down and like, see how that would factor in. It was kind of like, well, if that happens, that'd be cool. And that was very different. That unfolded very differently than I anticipated, especially because it's a brick and mortar space. And so the logistics of keeping a space like that successful look very different than the type of work that we were doing, which was virtual and meeting clients, you know, where they were. And all the businesses I'd owned before, same thing. It was all kind of consultant work and writing and things that I could do at my own pace or do off site. So that was my first experience of having a physical space. And that definitely shifted our plans for a while. And all that flexibility that we envisioned when we're like, oh, yeah, we're gonna go to Hawaii and like, work. All of a sudden I opened up physical space in our town and I'm like, well, now I'm extremely tied down. Like, that's the exact opposite. Okay, but we didn't quit. We didn't go like, oh, well, now we screwed up our plan, so we're just gonna do something else. It was like, okay, we're just gonna keep moving through this and keep that intention alive. And now we're in a place, you know, almost three years later, where I have a great staff at this nonprofit and I've got people, you know, helping to, to keep it going day to day so that like, I can now entertain that vision of being gone again and still everyone gets their needs met, you know, so we kind of diverted from the path, but we didn't lose sight of it. And so I think again, it's like continuing to have those goal setting conversations and like assessing, oh, how am I feeling now? And how does this look? And is this matching what we wanted? And then if it doesn't, starting to make intentional steps to re. Pivot back to kind of where you wanted things to be. I think that's just natural. That's just a natural part of life. Especially if you have kiddos, because things come up and all of a sudden you're like, Oh, I need to focus all my energy in this direction, and that is not what I planned or that was not on my list. But it doesn't mean you have to just give up everything that you're working toward. It just means that it. It looks different or maybe it takes longer. And I think that's okay.

Speaker A: 25:23

I think people. That's something that I've noticed in many conversations I've had about this kind of thing. So many people get confused with what making a pivot or a change is versus, like, learning you have to play the long game. Like, I think people think, oh, I'm gonna make a decision. It's gonna happen tomorrow. Life is gonna look different immediately. And I think that in order to have the kind of sustainability in that that most of us want, and, like, what you and Travis have done, I think it is committing to that notion that, like, this is going to take a while. It might not be right away.

Speaker C: 26:04

Totally. It's like. It's like exercise. It's like going from not exercising to exercising. You're not going to be like, this gym hunk in a day. You're, like, literally making this choice to step into the gym, and then the next day you're making the choice again, and then you get sick and you're out for a week. And it doesn't mean that everything that you've worked toward is lost. It just means, like, right, oh, all right. Well, I'm focusing on my health in a different way right now. And then when I'm better, I can step back in, and. And that's fine. And I'm still working toward that goal of being a healthier, stronger person. And so it's, you know, in some ways, it's less satisfying. It's way. It's way more satisfying to go on Instagram and see a before and after photo of someone who was, like, super ripped. But, like, that's not real. That didn't happen overnight. Right. Like, that was a lot of micro steps. And so I think that being okay with the discomfort of the in between is hugely necessary because the majority of life is actually the in between. Right. If we're waiting to get, then you miss out. It's over. Like, that's not, you know, it's just like, it's a constant recalibration because life is going to pull you in a hundred different directions. And so it's recalibrating back to, oh, wait, we're going here. Oh, wait, we're trying for this. Okay. Oh, that kind of went off course. Let's try this again. And just being comfortable in the discomfort of that versus comfortable in the discomfort of, well, I'm not really happy, but I know what to expect. I'm just going to settle and just keep doing what I'm doing. They're different, but they're both uncomfortable. Totally.

Speaker B: 27:38

The more that I do, it's like, which type of discomfort is more tolerable for you? But I think, yeah, I seem so many. I think that's part of the reason that Lauren and I wanted to do this is because I have seen so many before and afters posted on Instagram. I almost think it's to the point where it's toxic, where you like, see these people.

Speaker A: 28:00

Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: 28:01

This whole journey is summarized in like.

Speaker A: 28:04

A 30 second, four seconds.

Speaker B: 28:06

And you miss all of the work and the iterations of it that have gone into it. And I think the whole point is the middle. Like, that is the whole thing.

Speaker C: 28:19

That's the whole point. You have to be willing to sit in the middle for as long as that part takes.

Speaker B: 28:25

And there really is no results. Like once you get to that place, like life pivots and shifts again or things come up in your family and then they do a whole new recalibration. And like, it's, it's. Yeah, it's. That is life. That is. It isn't the after.

Speaker C: 28:40

It is totally life. And I will say that it's not always. I think the initial discomfort is probably the highest. The initial willingness, the first step into the gym when you're not in shape yet, the first like, choice to step away from like a career or a life that is not serving you, that is scary and hard. And so I think that as you practice, that part gets easier. And I will say now, you know, being several years in with our own business, being several years in with the non profit, having kids who are older and not so physically demanding, like, it is easier. Am I like, arrived? No, because like you said, there's no such thing. But I do think that it gets easier. You get in a rhythm. You're not constantly, you're not constantly necessarily like stressed out about it all the time. Whereas I think in the beginning it's more stressful because you're like, am I doing this? Can I pull this off? Is this happening? And you, you settle into a comfort there. But yeah, you have to reassess. And when it's your own thing, you care about it so much more. I found that like, and that's why I'm not so great at being an employee because I'm never going to care about Joe Schmo's thing as much as I care about my thing. And so then I'm going to put more into it. And because I put more into it, it makes me more stressed because I care more about it. And so that's definitely the nature. It's the nature of it, for sure.

Speaker B: 30:16

Yeah. And I think, I don't know, I don't even, I can't even quote the right. I'm not going to be able to quote this person. But one of my favorite quotes that I've heard recently is people often underestimate what they. They overestimate what they can do in one year and they underestimate what they can accomplish in five. And I love that.

Speaker A: 30:34

So true.

Speaker B: 30:35

I think your journey speaks to that. Both of yours, actually. I just think like the expectation that I'm going to go into the gym three days and walk out with a six pack and then I give up because I'm frustrated. Like I think we're kind of in a culture steeped in like instantaneous results and that isn't real. And so I think, I don't know. I think that message really resonates with me.

Speaker C: 30:56

It's a long game for sure. I.

Speaker B: 31:01

If you're comfortable, you and I have had conversations about. Because you wear so many hats in your life as so many.

Speaker A: 31:08

All the hats, Kim.

Speaker B: 31:09

All the hats. And I know that you and I have talked about this idea of like, of how amazing and incredible it is to be that multifaceted. But there's also this pressure on women to Newman in particular. But I feel like to stay busy and to like to be hustling at all times and how quickly as business owners we can adopt or even, or just maintain that if we're not intentional. And so I was going to ask you if that is something that you wanted to speak to at all and how you're sort of have you worked.

Speaker C: 31:45

To combat that for yourself or I'm over it culture. I lived it. It sucked. I am well into my 30s. I am done. Yeah. You know, it's funny because recently I have spoken with a couple of people who were also interested in opening a non profit kind of similar to what I'm. What I've done with, with my co founder. And so they wanted advice and ideas and I went into both of the conversations that I'm thinking of that ready to chat with them about the logistics and what I ended up chatting about with both of them for like an hour each was Mental health, which I didn't know was going to come out of my mouth. And the first person at the end of the conversation, I'm like, sorry, this what a downer I am. You're gonna do great. It's gonna be great. But what I realized is, like, I have learned a lot in the last few years about that. And not about mental health, necessarily, but just about myself and about the fact that I have kept myself really busy for my entire adult life. And anytime something starts to ease, I fill it with something else. Like, rather than just having space in my life, I'm like, oh, good, I now have three hours open on a Tuesday. What can I do with that? And so I very much tied my own productivity to my value as a person. Enter. Oh, oh, enter therapy. Okay. Like, major, major epic therapy. And it is a constant unraveling. And I'm not naturally good at it because I've spent forever doing that. And so my initial instinct always is, what did you do today? How are you productive today? What do you have to show for this day? And that is a really painful cycle to be in because you never win. It doesn't matter what the answer is. There's always something else that you forgot or that you didn't do or that you didn't get to or that you could have done better. And so, again, back to that question of how do I want to feel? That is not how I want to feel at all. It's not how anyone wants to feel. And so in mentoring and speaking to these other women, I said to them right away, like, there has to be a better way that you can preserve your mental health and also do something new or do something for others. Like in this instance, with this family center, we are serving hundreds now, thousands of families. And so I would joke to my husband, oh, well, you know, thousands of people are benefiting at the expense of me, but it's fine because I'm only one, and there are tons, so it's worth it. And he's like, that's not funny, because it's true. And. But it was like, well, it's fine. It's fine. And the truth is, like, it's not fine. It's not. It's not okay to. To put ourselves in that position. And I think that, you know, inevitably, when you're creating something from scratch, there's going to be stress. There are going to be days that are not sustainable. I think that's the nature of it. It's why not everyone is built to start their own business. Or wants to, and that's okay. Like, I think that has to be said that there is nothing wrong with just, like, being an employee and doing your job and coming home and being done. Like, that is totally fine. And I think that there's sometimes a pressure to, like, make something amazing of ourselves. And there are so many ways to. To be successful in this world, and work is one of them, and parenting is one of them. And having, like, a solid mental health state is a really great one that I'm not always awesome at. And there's just so many different things that we can place value on. And so I think a huge reason why I've been so busy and such a pivoter and such a do, do, do person is actually because of my own unresolved stuff. And so it's important to look at that, like, why. Where is this coming from? Why do I want to go this direction? Is it because of something innate in me? Is it because I'm trying to fill up a void? Is it because I am bored? Is it because I feel like I'm not doing a good job? There's. There's so many places that can come from, and I think that's a, like, really important first question to ask.

Speaker B: 36:21

Oh, that. Yes, I am.

Speaker A: 36:24

Like, don't blink, Lauren.

Speaker B: 36:26

Don't blink. No, I just, like, yes to every.

Speaker A: 36:30

Oh, man.

Speaker B: 36:32

I think it's really tricky because Circle Family center is such a gift to our community. Like, oh, my gosh, sweat and tears that you put into that really has impacted our entire community for the better and access to resources and support and community that I think did not exist otherwise. And, like, using that as the justification to continue pushing, I could totally see, like, especially in cognitive work or in motherhood, when you're pouring it into your kids.

Speaker C: 37:02

Oh, 100%. 100%. And that was me in the years where my son was unwell, where I was like, well, I just. I can't. Can't take care of myself. Can't do that. That's not on the table. And there are certainly seasons of life where, like, that is really true, and we just have to do our best and lean on support and. And also, I think we do it to ourselves a lot unnecessarily. And so I think one of the things that I was sharing with. With this woman that I was kind of mentoring was I jumped in with a nonprofit specifically and went full force out the gate. I was like, we are going to be open every day. We are going to have a full schedule. We're going to hire all these different people and go from not existing to existing in capital letters. And the truth is there's another way that I didn't even consider that I, looking back, go, oh, well, we could have like dipped our toe. We could have started without a space and just held classes at like community parks. We could have had our space, but only offered things a couple days a week and only been open on those days. Or like, there are ways to slowly ease into things. And I think that goes back to, you know, that earlier part of our conversation where it doesn't have to be a big jump, it doesn't have to be this all or nothing mentality that you can start by supporting your community in small ways and doing one weekly class where people can come and if that goes well, add another one and slowly, you know what I'm saying? Like, I think that by jumping into something fully and expecting ourselves to nail it right out the gate, which is 100% the way that I went into that family center experience, my expectations of myself were so incredibly high. I was now a community facing person. So I had feedback and opinions from hundreds of people. And while I'm still actively learning myself and figuring out and making mistakes because I'm a human and I'd never had a space like this before and my mental health just tanked. I mean, I was not doing well at all. And looking back, I go, oh, there is a, there's an alternative way to do that. And so I think that being really mindful of that and again, reassessing how do I want to feel, is this serving me? Not because every moment is easy, but because there are, there's another way. And our brains often trick us into like, this is how it has to be done. And if we take some time or if we find a great therapist or if we find a mentor or a friend or someone who can reflect back to us and be like, oh, well, have you considered this, this option just so that we don't get in our own spiraling brain space that tells us this is the way that you have to do it. And it doesn't matter that you're stressed and it doesn't matter that you're not sleeping and it doesn't matter that you're anxious. You have to keep going and that's how we just get stuck in that spiral. And it's way harder to get out of once you're in the spiral versus like slowly and intentionally moving toward the goal that you're trying to set for yourself.

Speaker B: 40:17

And then Adjusting it as you need.

Speaker C: 40:20

Absolutely. Life happens.

Speaker B: 40:23

So this is really personal and you can answer or not, but I, I was. Is. Was there like a break down to get to the breakthrough moment for you, or was it just slowly implementing changes to make that sustainable for yourself in a place now where you.

Speaker C: 40:37

It sounds like you've.

Speaker B: 40:38

You've made some adjustments.

Speaker C: 40:39

Yeah, I mean, always a work in progress. I'm, you know.

Speaker B: 40:42

Yes.

Speaker C: 40:44

So I was diagnosed with some really intense chronic health stuff about a year into the nonprofit opening. And it was stuff that had been going on for a long time, but is exacerbated by stress. And so all these ways that I felt like my body was failing me was really my body screaming at me, like, you are doing too much and you are not resting. And so it came out for me as poor health. And I've spent the last two years recovering, and that has been a very up and down process and continues to be. And you know, to be honest, I think that my health will never be what I want it to be because of some of the choices that I made in my 20s and early 30s. I think pushing myself chronically over a long period of time has affected me. And in some ways I can do all the right things and it'll still never be probably where it was. And so that's something that I've had to come to terms with. Some days I'm okay with that. A lot of days I feel really upset about it. And it's also a learning experience for me that our bodies do not lie. And we can do a lot and push and push and push. And at some point our body's going to tell us, like, this is not sustainable. This is not safe. This is not for you. And so that was the beginning for me. So a year and I go, oh my gosh, Like, I need to, I. My body stopped me. I was like, I cannot keep going at this pace. I need to find another way. And that's when I started focusing on surrounding myself with people who could support me in what I was trying to do. So, like, for the family center, that meant really investing time and energy into finding staff that could see the vision and execute the vision and. And be part of the vision and help it grow beyond, you know, anything that I could do on my own. And. And then it also meant, like, working on the parts of myself that were perpetuating that mentality of, you have to keep going, you have to keep going. And so again, therapy was huge for me and, like, kind of pulling me out of that loop that I had myself on so that I could reassess and be like, well, wait, is this serving me? Could this look different? How can I still be the person in the world that I want to be, which is someone who is enhancing the lives of other people and making a difference and supporting people in ways that. That I know they need support while also not running myself ragged? And so, again, it's a constant battle, and it's a constant reprogramming of my brain. Um, but, yeah, there was definitely, like, a reckoning that happened about a year in. So that was. That was about two years, almost two years ago. Um, and that's. It's been a. It's been a journey, for sure.

Speaker B: 43:47

Yeah, I. I relate to that as well. I feel like your body gives you these, like, subtle little signals, and it's like these alarm bells going off, and then if we don't pay attention to them, at least for me, they get bigger and bigger and bigger until you're forced to contend with it and you. Or emotionally can't.

Speaker C: 44:04

I am so good at ignoring you guys. I can't believe. And I'm gonna venture out and say most people listening are really good at ignoring the subtle warning signs. Yeah, I, like.

Speaker A: 44:18

I used to call it compartmentalizing. I'm just really good at compartmentalizing. It's another thing I'm great at.

Speaker C: 44:23

And we're like, that's actually not a healthy skill, but. And, you know, something that I have learned over these last couple years is, like, we build these skills because we need them. Like, there. There are things that happened in our childhood. There are things that happen in our early adult life where, like, that was a necessary skill that served us to keep us safe, to make us feel like we could function through challenging situations. And so we are grateful to our brains and our bodies for helping us navigate those things. But what happens is they become habits, and then all of a sudden, we don't need them, but we're still using them. And that's when they start to, like, be an active disservice to us. And so it's really hard to catch that on your own. That's why, for me, like, having therapy, having an outside source of someone being like, hey, wait a second, check yourself. This is. Your brain is telling you this version, but there's another version. I think it's super helpful because especially when we're starting something new, if you're doing something by yourself, you have no checks and balances. There's no one there to be, like, hey, whoa. You're overdoing it. Let's find another way that's more sustainable. Right?

Speaker B: 45:29

If only we talk to ourselves the way that we would talk to and.

Speaker A: 45:33

Oh, man.

Speaker B: 45:36

So hardwired.

Speaker C: 45:37

Great.

Speaker A: 45:37

Ain't that the truth?

Speaker B: 45:39

Yeah, it's really. I. Becoming a mom to a daughter, I feel like, has really. It really shifted my perspective around that a little bit. With the help of therapy and sort of, like, really unpacking a lot of the programming you're talking about and thinking about, like, what do I want Ruby's model to be for work, for, like, how she moves through the world. And, like, I finally realized that, like, I can tell her all the things, but if I'm running myself into the ground, like, that's her model. And so that's.

Speaker C: 46:13

That is so much more powerful. Our actions are so much more powerful. And I experienced that a lot. We all have. We all have daughters, which is interesting. I think that my daughter in particular has been a big driving force for me too. But I experienced that a lot as a kid where all the words were right, but the actions didn't align with them. And so the actions are what stuck with me. I was like, oh, well, you know, this is being said in the home, but that's not really how it feels. And I. It feels like this. And so, gosh, that has been such a huge challenge and goal for me is to align my actions with my words, including ways that, like, I mess up or fail. Like, I try and acknowledge it with my kids because I want them to understand, like, I'm an adult. I make mistakes, too. Oops, I didn't handle that well. Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, you know what? I did this thing and I totally messed it up. But it's okay. I worked it out, and here's what I did, and here's my solution. Like, trying to talk through my, like, quote, unquote failures with them, too. Because that perfectionist side of me wants to present everything as being all together. But then that's what I'm perpetuating in my daughter, which is exactly what we don't want. It's very hard. So hard. So hard. So that.

Speaker B: 47:31

To normalize, I think, like, if you want to call it failure, because, like, I don't think that you. The whole conversation we've had is like, you can't. If you don't screw up, if you don't. If you don't mess up and pivot along the way, like, you can't. You can't move. You can't you can't progress at all.

Speaker C: 47:49

And as a parent, one of the things I want most for my kids is for them to be resilient, because life is challenging and things are hard. And I think what I want to do, what most of us probably want to do as a mom, is to just, like, shelter our kids from all the hard things. But then they're not building that resilience muscle. And so allowing them to feel discomfort and not instantly fix it is so challenging, but it's also serving them in such a huge way. And I feel like I came. My family system was my mom had a lot of trauma and had a really, really hard childhood. And so her solution to that was to take really good care of us. And she did, and she took such good care, and she sheltered us from all the things. And then as an adult, my resilience muscle was not very strong. It has been a huge challenge and growth in my 30s, especially of, like, building this part of myself that, for many good reasons, didn't have a chance to grow during a time in my life where, like, I could have learned that in a lot less painful ways. Right. And so as a mom now trying to kind of break that cycle where it's like, yes, you guys are in a safe container. And also, like, things are hard and I'm not going to just do it for you. I have to actively stop myself from stepping in. But I'm working hard with that, trying to build their resilience so that when they're adults and they are looking at all the options in their life and how they want to feel, that they feel brave enough to go try something and also resilient enough to figure out a solution, it when it inevitably doesn't go exactly how they think it's going to go. Right. Because that's kind of the nature of stepping off and doing your own thing.

Speaker B: 49:33

Yep. I'm obsessed with all the parenting podcasts right now. Doctor.

Speaker C: 49:38

Oh, my God, I love her.

Speaker B: 49:40

And I just exactly that. Like, we expect our kids to, like, turn 18 and then suddenly, like, be resilient. And it's like, it's a muscle that you flex. Back to the gym analogy, if you haven't practiced that, like, your kid isn't going to suddenly become a person who is resilient. It is a skill that you build.

Speaker C: 49:56

Yeah, I definitely was weak in that area, and probably still. And in some ways, I think that that's why it has taken me some, like, pretty epic internal failures. More so. Like, I think on the outside, things have looked really good. They've looked really together. And it's been very much at the expense, expense of my internal self. And so that's where like all this heavy lifting has had to happen, which is hard because no one can see that part. You're just doing it for you. But it's also, I feel like that's something valuable. Sorry, go ahead. No, yeah, I was. That's just. I think that's been the most valuable work that I have ever done.

Speaker A: 50:37

Yeah, I think that's something that plagues our generation of women. Like, honestly, I really do that. All or nothing, black and white. Like, everything has its place, everything has a time, everything. If you're not going to do it to the best of your ability, don't bother trying at all. If you're not going to succeed, failure's not an option. So you're not even going to try. Like, I know for me, that's definitely been true of my upbringing and my, you know, just my experience as a human in this world. And like you've both said, looking at these girls and being like, oh, wait a minute, but I don't want that for you. So then does that mean it doesn't have to be that way for me too? Like, wait a sec.

Speaker B: 51:17

And I think part of that is like the culture that we're in with social media. Both of you actually like, as having bigger presences online. I have like five followers, so it's not really as relevant for me. Both of you, I feel like you guys are really transparent, or at least as transparent as you're comfortable about showing, like, what's going super well. And then also times of hardship and it's normalizing that. I think it's really important. And I think it's something I really appreciate about the two of you is that you're willing to be vulnerable.

Speaker C: 51:45

That feels like a responsibility to me. Honestly, like, when I started getting more followers on social media, I again wanted to be really intentional. I was like, oh, this feels like power in a weird way where it's like, if people are listening to you, you have to be careful what you say. And I know for me, watching other people on social media and seeing the highlight reels and being like, wow, I feel like ****, like I don't have it together like that and my kids don't behave like that. And this isn't like it would make me feel bad. And my whole thing was like, I was horrified by the idea that anyone would ever feel bad looking at what my social media looks like. And so with That I was like, welcome to the**** show. Like, today was hard. Let's talk about it. And I know Lauren does that too.

Speaker A: 52:37

And I there is literally said it on my stories this morning.

Speaker B: 52:42

Never would have known.

Speaker C: 52:43

There is an element of responsibility. And as we are learning more about social media and how, like, detrimental it is to mental health, it's like, if we're choosing to engage on platforms like that, it's. I think it's important to be transparent because we're doing a disservice to the people who end up watching and are falling and looking at our lives who think, wow, she really has it together. And it's like, no, I'm just ******** up in all these tiny ways all the time. And like, cool, it looks good on a picture. But that's not actually what's going on. So, yeah, that I've stepped away from social media in a lot of ways just because again, for my mental health, it's really challenging and I want to model that for my kids because we're. We're not doing that around here. No social media for. For these kiddos. So like it. So, yeah, it's hard. It's so. All of it is so hard. We're navigating so much and just trying to do a good job.

Speaker A: 53:41

I think that's part of the reason, too, why we wanted to start this project podcast. All the things it's going to be is because of exactly that. Like, we. We demonize things looking messy or things being hard or things being uncomfortable. Like, it's just somehow become this negative when it's like, if people want to pivot, if they want to make a change, if they want something to look different, there are in. It's an absolute that you're going to have those moments. And yet for some reason, then when you come across that you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I didn't sign up for that. Hold on a sec. The messy middle. Yeah, I messed up.

Speaker B: 54:21

Yeah. Or it wasn't successful. It didn't work out.

Speaker C: 54:26

To recalibrate what we view as success. Yeah. You know, I think when we look at success as this end product that has a pretty bow on it and looks like six figures or looks like, whatever, a beautiful home or looks like a clean space or whatever your version of success is, all of that is really external. And again, it's coming back to me. Success is, do I feel good in my body, in my spirit, day to day? Like, do I have a life that I'm not trying to escape from? Because that's really, that's the whole idea. Right. Is like, this is. You know, people talk about self care, and it always sounds like going and getting massage or a pedicure, going on a girls weekend. And all of that is like these little escapes and then you just come back to your regular life. Right? And so to me, I'm like, well, how about building a life that you're not trying to run away from at any chance that you get? What a novelty. But it's hard. It's hard to do that because we're not. Society is not set up to support us in making that happen. The external drive for productivity and solutions and output, it doesn't really make room for the messy middle. It's very much like, I would. I would like something with a bow on it, please. And so it's like an act of rebellion to like, say, actually, no, I'm going to, like, do this version. And it feels good to me. And it's okay if it doesn't look good to you because it's not about that.

Speaker B: 55:58

Yeah, I agree.

Speaker A: 56:00

Love it.

Speaker B: 56:01

So I'm. I'm so grateful to you for taking the time to be our first guest seriously.

Speaker A: 56:07

You're amazing.

Speaker C: 56:08

Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: 56:10

Thank you for being willing to do this.

Speaker C: 56:12

I love that you're. You're pivoting to this podcast life. Cassie's like, who am I? Who are you even? Let's find out together, shall we?

Speaker B: 56:23

Let's do it. I think we wanted to close with one question. I think we're going to kind of try and do this as we close out with everyone is like, kind of think about, like, what is the next? And it doesn't have to be business based. It can be mental health, anything that you want. But, like, what is the next pivot for you and you and your family's life?

Speaker C: 56:42

What's.

Speaker A: 56:48

Europe next summer?

Speaker C: 56:49

Yeah, I think our next pivot is taking this show on the road.

Speaker B: 56:55

Love it.

Speaker C: 56:57

You know, we are. We. Our kids are older, so we're dictated by school schedules. Although I'm a big fan of pulling my kids out of school to travel, I feel like that's pretty valuable. Yeah. I think our next pivot is really creating more opportunity to travel and to travel with them. I just love the flexibility and resilience that builds in them by being in new spaces and experiencing new cultures. And I want to kind of make good on that vision that we had of, hey, we're building something that's really dynamic and really flexible so that we can do it from anywhere in the world. So I want to start doing it from anywhere in the world. So I think that's the next big step. I'm excited, I'm hopeful, and I'm learning the ins and outs of credit card points so that we can try and do the same way. So wish me luck.

Speaker A: 57:50

Get those miles, girl.

Speaker C: 57:51

Bring you back on.

Speaker B: 57:52

And you master that and you can kind of a little class.

Speaker A: 57:56

How to next season.

Speaker C: 57:59

Next season. How to travel on point.

Speaker B: 58:02

Huh?

Speaker C: 58:04

Oh, my gosh. Well, where can.

Speaker A: 58:06

Where can the people find you? Yeah, where can everybody connect with you? Where. What's coming up? Tell the people.

Speaker C: 58:13

If you're local, come hang out with us at the Circle Family center if you are pregnant or have young children. We have so many classes and support groups. We are available to everyone in the county, regardless of your ability to pay. So we offer scholarships to anyone who needs them. We're in Aptos, and you can find us at the Circle Family center on Instagram or thecirclefamilycenter.org online. Aptos Village Creative is the name of our web and photo business. If you want some pretty pictures or a new website, Travis and I would love to help you with that. And yeah, otherwise you can find me at the beach with my kids all summer, because that plan jet set to Europe. You can find me in Europe. That sounds really fancy. And we are not fancy. Yeah, we'll.

Speaker B: 59:04

We'll.

Speaker C: 59:05

We'll touch back on that in a year and see how we're doing on that.

Speaker B: 59:09

You can make a shirt for yourself and next year that says it's because of the points or I'm here because of points or something.

Speaker C: 59:15

Right.

Speaker A: 59:16

We'll make some merch.

Speaker C: 59:17

I'm feeling inspired by these points. I'm like, I think I can do this. I think we'll see. I'm a thrifty lady, so we'll see what we can do.

Speaker B: 59:25

I believe in you.

Speaker C: 59:28

Thank you again.

Speaker A: 59:29

Your friend.

Speaker C: 59:31

Thank you. Thank you. I love chatting with you. And I'm excited. I'm excited to see where this pivot takes both of you.

Speaker B: 59:39

As are we.

Speaker A: 59:42

Amen, sister. All right, thanks, you guys.

Speaker C: 59:47

Bye.

Speaker B: 59:51

Thanks for listening to when she pivots. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love if you hit subscribe and leave a.

Speaker A: 59:57

Review, find us on Instagram at when she pivots. And feel free to send us a message with any thoughts, questions, or future episode requests. We'd love to hear from you. Here's to building our truest and most beautiful lives together.